And it was a hard lesson for me but a good one about you know, of course, it's cliche, of course you bet on the person and but no, but when it's really attractive when the horse is really, really gonna win, like you really have a feeling about that horse and the jockey you don't know about, like, it's really tempting, every single time, it's tempting. So I know those are two things that are really, really important to you. But when you can do it, I'm advocate in that because that is the fast B, and that is that kind of mentality. We hope that continuing to concentrate on these things will take us to the next level in the future. So now, you know, Underground Printing, custom t-shirt manufacturer and retail stores in a whole bunch of college stores. View contacts for Underground Printing to access new leads and connect with decision-makers. Like, what have you seen people do to improve their communication? Sign up for texts. And you know, it's like, those people that can talk to any audience at any time, at any age. You know, earlier in my career, and maybe still, maybe till till this day, I still maybe pushed too too fast. And when we were eight, we moved to Okemos, right outside East Lansing, which you know, all too well. So we're happy with it. I'm preaching and talking and teaching kids about taking a chance. Underground Printing, first known as A-1 Screenprinting, was founded in 2001 by childhood friends Rishi Narayan and Ryan Gregg while they were undergraduates at the University of Michigan. And it just that was a good lesson to learn is like, it doesn't matter how awesome the horses, how fast the horses, the jockey fail good. Yeah, you know, like, you know, who followed him. Bitten by the entrepreneurial bug, they kept searching for a longer-term business venture. Those are really impressive people. And so I went to, you know, went through high school and then wanted to go to U of M, and study Chemical Engineering at University of Michigan. And then looking back on it, you know, but look, it really did teach me a lesson about hedging. So, my name may have been a giveaway on it. You should have a talk with that model. Yeah. Thank you so much for joining us. I don't know that he's really cut out for modeling. Is that about right? Not as bad as airlines and hotels? I think hard work is a subset to a lot of, you know, a lot of us, you know, like we believe and we are hard workers, I think it's actually, the more you open yourself up to opportunities and potential chances of failure, the luckier you get. You know, I agree. But I'm like, I feel very confident in it, it's all about communication. I won't name names to make anyone blush out there, but you know, it, we have mutual friends that are like that, and I feel good about those. Hundred percent, I think that once I started, I think I did feel some guilt like and I wanted to have interest in other things. It was a good distance away, but still close enough to home and went to U of M to be an engineer. Yeah. UGP opens our first Retail Store in January near campus at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor, MI. Wait until you see if you've gotten to the point, why not hit that level? There was one thing before we went I had to say; so you know I'm a MuskOx customer as you know, I have a flannel and a henley. I think you have to like keep honing it. And I think this speaks volumes about your approach to learning. So I don't think it's something where it's like, oh, how you got to open yourself up to opportunities, that's a timing thing, that's an "are you in the right place thing" and hopefully, you are able to put yourself in a position to do that. Right, because in college, it was kind of like, you had this serendipity moment of this tow truck driver, which, yeah, was was sort of a nice kick in the ass for for you to actually start this t-shirt company. So yeah, as you allude to, I went and realized very quickly that I didn't really want to be an engineer. And now, you know, I started to develop this kind of strategy at that time of the fast B which is basically like, you know, you don't need a get to the fast B because in real life nobody cares if you got A they just care if you got there, you know, and how and did you get there in time such for sure. Sure. So yeah, how did you get over it that very first time? So I'm a college town, kid. Underground Printing was founded by Rishi Narayan in 2001. They decided on the name of A-1 Screen printing - so they could be the first in the phone book (Click here to find out what a phone book is). The. That's communication. SaaS, Android, Cloud Computing, Medical Device), Where the organization is headquartered (e.g. Give people time to adapt, like there is a cause for that, that actually can get you places faster than trying to just pull everyone along with you. So I've literally only ever lived in college towns. And your business, your nonprofit, your community, your school, whatever it is, it's going to be more successful. But yeah, that was that was a factor. And I had a brief stint living in Berkeley, California. But in hindsight, it helped develop and frame like my beliefs in hedging and risk taking, you know, that I don't believe that entrepreneurship is risk taking, I think it's smart hedges/smart bets and making the right decision more often than not. Oh, that's clearly important running a business and investor. UGP continues to expand its production capacity with two more 8-head embroidery machines,ten heat presses, two new large scale dryers, newten color automatic screen printing press, new automatic folding machine, and state of the art eco-rinse screen machine and automatic scoop coaters for screen prep. And so that was the first time but here's the thing is like, I can preach about that all day long. Even now, UGP prides itself on its investment into manufacturing and technology. And it was going really well, the founder we weren't lukewarm on. Because the right person, you know, is going to figure it out, you know, and we have, we have friends of ours who are great operators who have like gone through iterations of companies and come come through on the other side, you know. Because, it's so hard to do that. Underground Printing designs and creates custom made shirts in all quantities. The smiliest person I know who literally didn't smile in the whole thing. And here I am being like, "I'm not gonna do this, because I'm worried about success and right, is it worth my time?" You know, hopefully, again, back up to 250. You said, "hey, like, being able to get over your, your ego and get over the opportunity of failure and the fact that, frankly, you will fail?" And what I think is interesting is, that's not a lesson just for hiring at a company. In 2021, UGP celebrated their 20th anniversary. I was fortunate enough to learn what I wanted to do while I was in school, by opening myself up to opportunities. UGP moves production from a 3,000 sqf shop to a 12,000 sqf production facility. I think that's a great final lesson here. And that's one of my favorite things about where we are in this climate is that people have come around to valuing profitability. Like what makes for a good risk versus return ratio, where you're you're not taking that risk, so to speak, but you're actually making a smart investment. So like, nowadays, like that's not how business gets started, but then it was like it was a side gig a side hustle, we sold, we didn't sell hundreds of jobs that first year, we sold like 10 jobs first, you know, 15 jobs whatever, right? Or how would you word the email? Right. A great lesson. And again, and startups the same way, just start a business every three to five years. And so it was just, I lost the fun I'd rather be, I'd rather be small and be close than to have gotten the Series B or Series C and be very far from it, and still not profitable, still not accident. Like, you know, great commencement speeches, you know, I eat those things up, I love commencement speeches, right? Most people that were starting businesses, we're selling something, or, or providing a service, but essentially, it was all sales of some sort, advertising websites, whatever it might. And so I think, to put it all in perspective, I'm much better than many people out there. I'm a grad student, you know, still, that's what I do. in November we added four new digital machines in our main facility. But I also feel like there are a lot of hard workers out there that didn't, that didn't get lucky. And then I went to school in Ann Arbor. And then what was the point, because I'm just gonna get diluted down anyway. In November, UGP moves production from a 12,000 sq. They were pretty sure they couldn't sneak it all into their dorm room. We're in the middle of a recession, a global pandemic, and tons of protests in the streets. I'm around @RishiNarayan. But this business is great. And oh, by the way, there's like your expectations as you get older, and go higher and higher. So I want to dig into two words that you mentioned. We learned hard lessons about cash flow, and collections and payables and all that stuff. After high school, Ryan and Rishi both ended up at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor, where engineering classes didn't really hold their attention. It may very well be after some of the things over we talked about, you know, ourselves, you and I. I mean, I love your story so much, because it talks about hard work and dumb luck, and being willing to just take a chance and combining it all together. And all part and parcel, right? So you're growing this t-shirt business and at that point, you kind of know this is what you want to do. So we'll coach him up. But my parents are from India. That's because that's what makes us go. But yes, we're up there. I love it. It is headquartered in Ann Arbor, Michigan. It's just like all things like. SouthUStories.com. It is true, it probably is inefficient. It's, you have to do it again. And I think I've told you this, but like, to some degree, why am I teaching at U of M? Changes name to Underground Printing (UGP). Six new UGP office locations are opened up: Oakland, CA in January, Miami, FL and, in May, Seattle, WA and Savannah, GA in July, and Nashville, TN. So when someone asked what I did, I had to basically say, you know, this is what I do, I print t-shirts. So motivational, it was awesome. So it's your 250 employees-ish, you're in a number of different college towns, you've also started an angel investment group, you own a soccer club, the AFC Ann Arbor. That's good with me. Yeah. And I did feel a little bit of guilt. Where can the good folks in the MuskOx Herd follow you and listen to your podcast? And so, no, I've actually pulled back from investing a little bit because as I've invested in startups, or whatever that actually have grown, the reality is, is that as a very, like, the seed round investor is like, I lost, I lose that connection to the founder pretty quickly, unless I have like a personal connection to them. But it came from this idea that like, I stopped defining success as getting an A, or being at the top of my class, even though that's how I was raised to be and in hindsight/retrospect, I think a lot of that was my own internal pressure I put on came from cultural, came from my peers, came from whatever it might be, but it wasn't, but the majority of it was internal pressure I put on myself. A couple of my lessons learned that I've had people I work with that have, you know, taught me some hard lessons giving me some hard feedback. Get him to smile. You can help Wikipedia by expanding it. You know, I think there's something to that. Communication is oftentimes about how you read emails these days as opposed to write letters or whatever, right. Oh, by the way, you're also teaching classes at the University of Michigan in entrepreneurship. And sometimes sheer hard luck and sheer will can get you there. And I'm going to be good at that. That's when UGP co-founders Rishi Narayan and Ryan Gregg met in 6th grade. Throw you know, maybe any savings aside, you know, these are these are difficult things and I, you know, I remember like when we started the company and started, that at a very early age, sophomore in college, just got to get, and get a lot of kudos for being so young. Get early access to clothing drops. Never, you know. You worked for it through your sophomore year, your junior and your senior year. And we hope we can grow. Right. I've got to start by asking you. And so those are the ones that I'm really more interested in these days. They moved from India to Indiana, where all I mean, for obvious reasons. One of the things I think is pretty interesting here that I haven't never talked with you about is you started Underground Printing when you were an undergrad. And it was only sitting in, like, intro to thermodynamics, my sophomore year that I was like: "what is this, this is nothing like what I thought it was going to be." And that's roots and family. So I needed to be able to tell people about that. Active, Closed, Last funding round type (e.g. And really forces you to go back to your roots, you know, sales, if sales is what it was, or customer service, if that's what it was, or I would argue they are the same thing. And if I get an extra money back, then that's, that's just gravy on top of it. That's where I feel the most comfortable as I will tell anyone. And we ended up deciding to take this guy out to dinner, offer to buy all of his t-shirt equipment, old, old t-shirt equipment, and start a t-shirt company. My podcast is called South U Stories. But you know what, we're humans. Of course, leg up, man. And a couple years after that, company tanked. And I just like I don't know what day it was. And that was two years ago, and after I would, you know, have been well, well on my career. And so it did, it provided me two more years of runway to see whether this was the thing that we were going to do and and you know that to be completely honest, the first year, year and a half, like, we were figuring it out, and we were we were going at our own pace. But there was a company we're pretty enamored with, was really doing really well in a space I knew really well. But before I let you go, I'm curious to understand as someone who's been running a business for while and obviously there's great benefit for people; they get a chance to work in a startup or a high growth, you know, business, what have you seen as the number one characteristic that you now seek out when you're hiring new people. That was kind of humbling for me to some degree, right? And that's not necessarily always true. This really exposes that. But after some gentle persuading and reassuring, they convinced the now-infamous tow truck driver to let them set up shop in his garage, next to a broken-down Chevy and two golden retrievers who lovingly shared their hair with anything they touched. It wasn't just going to be school, I like I'm doing this thing as well. That's where you'll find Underground Printing. And it just came in a small dose and then it went from there. So I've actually pulled back and I think I'm more interested in businesses that I know, I'm more interested in businesses that don't have aspirations of exiting, and don't have aspirations of raising multiple rounds, both have aspirations of raising one round, and then existing and turning a profit or whatever. It's always good to feel young. So you're a busy man. I think that I'm a believer in hedging. Yes. So what's the one characteristic that you found to be most valuable? My busted up Ford Probe GT Turbo, and a couple run-ins with breaking down and, and this is jack-of-all-trades type tow truck driver who used to print t-shirts in town. And I think that's really interesting, because we all learn so much when you can step outside, running the day to day business. And, and so for me, investing really is it's B school, for me, it has been, like I've always owned up to this is like, I don't really expect to get an ROI on a lot of my investments. Yeah. But anytime you're doing something new, there's a whole lot of effort, there's a learning curve. So, you know, I think that there's really a training to like, just take a chance of stuff, take a chance of stuff and maybe throw your ego aside which is hard to do. And it was supposed to be rooted in academics, and it was supposed to potentially be "this" success level. I could take classes and do okay, and you know, graduate and get the degree. There's lots of different ways that communication just basically needs to revamp and revamp, and you could have been a great communicator five years ago, and not be one now. Sometimes you really have to slow slow down, you know, and wait. Because I think it's one of those things that you just don't know right away. Seven new UGP office locations opened up: Additionally, in October we launched a newly redesigned. But I usually put the ball in the other person's court if that's where they want to go. And you mentioned something that I think is really important. Right? And then going all in. Like, yeah, it may not be worth your time. And something is standing in their way. Rishi talks to Brad about the hardships of a college startup and dives into his advice for the aspiring entrepreneur. We bet on the horse and not the jockey. Please note, comments must be approved before they are published. A series of car "troubles" experienced by Rishi and his beloved Ford Probe GT led to a chance encounter with a tow truck driver who used to dabble in screen printing in a former life. Ryan and Rishi's approach to customer service on a college campus really set them apart. Well, listen, I want to be respectful of your time here. The real risk and responsibility would be with a mortgage and responsibilities and a partner, spouse, kids, you know, a life; people to take care of like, when you risk it, then that's, that's trickier. He's got a lot of work to do. And a couple years later, that turned disastrous for me. I'm good with that. But, I do think that the way that I did it, the first time around was by just saying like, I can juggle a lot of things. Your audiences change, you know, generations. You know, that's what I loved about President Obama, like such a great speaker. Hopefully, we'll be around. I certainly believe the harder you work, the luckier you get. And for you, I'm asking you to put your investor hat on, and I'd like to come back to this in just a minute why you've decided to become an investor. But because they were so far apart. And I thought the things he did was cool. Still it's worth it. I think getting over it the first time for me, was, um, I talked about, I've talked about this before, but basically, it was understanding that I was not going to be at the top of my class at U of M in chemical engineering, that I wasn't into it as much as maybe others were, and that wasn't going to be my path. And I wanted to get involved in other things. Go there and check it out. In May, UGP expands production facility from 33,000 sq. Their ability to cater to their core college customer and willingness to meet their customers anywhere and at anytime was the driving force behind growth. Underground Printing offers embroidery, digital printing, and screen printing services for a wide range of apparel and promotional products, including polo t-shirts, pens, hats, magnets, jerseys, sweats, and more. So no, I was glad of my choices. And I really learned well that way. company facilitates a number of stores from which their customers are able to order and purchase their products. That's right. Yeah, it's hard to convince someone that you can like hedge three things when you've taken a million dollars or something like that. Founded as A-1 Screen printing in Rishi's University of Michigan Dorm Room. And I was watching went to a product. And I've never known why Arkansas has said Arkansas as opposed to Kansas or Kansas or in front of it. And once I kind of made that realization/got over that had something else to kind of put my chips into a little bit. In April, UGP employment reaches 200 people and just months later in August UGP adds 3rd shift to production. Yes. If you want to go after something as a startup. So how the hell can you get better at that? Yeah. It's not a it's not a negative word anymore. The same characteristics that set us apart then are the reason we are one of the nation's premier custom apparel providers now: an emphasis on customer service, quality, and convenience. And it was only until like, I realized I was really attracted into companies and markets and areas that had some, some tangential tie in back to all the things I like, or have tie in some way. I told people, you know, when they were emailing back and forth or communicating in our systems like don't waste time putting thanks or thanks for your help or anything like everyone knows everyone else is thankful that's one extra email one extra thing to click on or whatever, like, that's a waste that's inefficient. So things like that. You know, I think obviously, how you communicate, it's really easy to like, I tend to be verbose and long winded and emails, and I think, you know, I've been reading a lot about like, "look, if you wouldn't say the word out loud, don't type it, you know, things like that. And I just tend to be a person that likes to learn by, you know, putting my own chips in. But when you close down and you don't open yourself up to a lot of opportunities you don't feel as lucky but you also don't feel the ups and downs so to speak. I mean, there's a lot of examples out there of those companies. ft. facility to a state of the art 33,000 sq. But when you're when you're playing with house money, so to speak, or you know, a little friends and family or whatever, then yeah, why not? It is potentially pending a name change but you know we'll keep the redirect on. Little did I know, that was what he did. And what's the definition of success? The India-na really pulled my parents in. I agree. And, you know, as I think both culturally that was important. It was a lot harder than I thought it was gonna be. [3], In 2018, they partnered with the Pittsburgh Steelers to produce Stronger Than Hate shirts in the wake of the Tree of Life synagogue shooting. I was getting there. But many friends, many people that you and I both know, only learn what they want to do after they graduate and take a career in what they think they're supposed to do, and then only learn that three down three years down the line, right, they get it wrong. So we talked a lot about tone. And, you know, the reason not Michigan State where my father was a professor was because I just couldn't imagine myself in his, like, classes or anything like that. So I'll tell you about the first time but I'll also tell you like, it isn't a past tense. Like, you don't use that word in your normal everyday vocabulary, you can't expect people to read it in emails, right. The number one characteristic I think is the most valuable, but I don't know that I can seek it out. Yeah. Ryan and Rishi purchased a very basic screen printing setup, but still had one issue: Where would they produce their shirts? And so I think that those managers, those leaders, those that can tell the story, well, you know, communicate well, and look, and that's something that's learned and it's learned with each new, triumphant and each new tribulation, you know, like, I don't think it's something like once you've learned to communicate, that's it. So I I truly do think it's not a thing that you get over the hurdle. I think was coming from me. For sure. But what makes for a good investment, right? And then there was just an internal pressure, you know, to, quote-unquote, succeed and do that myself. I was lucky, lucky to have gotten it right. And so you know, I really like to take it in that lens, but yeah man, you know, business is hard. I'm not a believer in taking a big bet. I graduated from grad school, I couldn't say I was a student anymore. Twonew UGP office locations are opened up: , in August and Boulder, CO, in September. And it reveals a lot of your thinking, because you've grown a really successful business with Underground Printing, you're busy, you mentioned it's hard to run a business, I can attest to that, right? In class, I actually take a little bit of time to talk about, like, how to write emails, best ways to sign off. Contrary to the company timeline below, the story of Underground Printing really started in 1992. Or how did you overcome that? And I slowly began to realize that what I loved was entrepreneurship. In November, UGP adds three more automatic presses to the shop, bringing the total count to 12 automatic presses and 11 manual presses. So, that's an example. Hundreds of pickup basketball games and several broken eyeglasses later, they became best friends, paving the way for the creation of the Underground Printing we know now. So how are you? Fast forward to two years later, when I realized that what an idiot I was, of course, I should have like, been in my dad's classes, like any advantage, I could have in college: course notes, like nepotism, I would have taken it all. Just live in a college town, man.